Talk:Atozuke: Difference between revisions

From Japanese Mahjong Wiki
Jump to navigation Jump to search
VisualWikitext
(Created page with "Testing a rewrite for atozuke: '''Atozuke''' {{kana|後付け}} is the state of a <!-- yakuless tenpai hand, that gains yaku upon the claim of a winning tile. In oth...")
 
mNo edit summary
 
(2 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown)
Line 1: Line 1:
Testing a rewrite for atozuke:
Testing a rewrite for atozuke:


'''Atozuke''' {{kana|後付け}} is the state of a <!-- yakuless [[tenpai]] hand, that gains [[yaku]] upon the claim of a winning tile.  In other words, the hand currently does not possess yaku, but it is tenpai. However, this term does not necessarily apply to closed hands, whose only yaku is [[mentsumo]].  In the case of mentsumo, any tile produces yaku upon tsumo, which is not what atozuke implies.  The use of atozuke is subject to a variable rule, which may or may not allow its use.  That decision falls on a league, organization, or house rule. --> hand that is severely dependent on calls to complete the hand. The cases where a hand is caught in an atozuke position are:
'''Atozuke''' {{kana|後付け}} is the state of a hand that is severely dependent on calls to complete the hand. This always implies the winning tile is dependent on calling, but previous calls can trigger the atozuke state as well.
 
== Example ==
=== What atozuke is ===
The cases where a hand is caught in an atozuke position are:
* when a hand is waiting on a tile that will provide it its winning yaku, such as
* when a hand is waiting on a tile that will provide it its winning yaku, such as
:{{#mjt:111m456789s99p55z}}  Agari: {{#mjt:9p}} or {{#mjt:5z}} [no riichi call]
:{{#mjt:111m456789s99p55z}}  Agari: {{#mjt:9p}} or {{#mjt:5z}} [No riichi call.]
* when a hand has opened up and is not dependent on the first call to score the yaku, such as
* when a hand has opened up and is not dependent on the first call to score the yaku, such as
:{{#mjt:111m456s99p55z}} {{#mjt:7'89s}}  Agari: {{#mjt:9p}} or {{#mjt:5z}}
:{{#mjt:111m456s99p55z}} {{#mjt:7'89s}}  Agari: {{#mjt:9p}} or {{#mjt:5z}}
* calling for a group and then aiming to complete something with it, such as:
:{{#mjt:1112s111678p}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:2s}} or {{#mjt:3s}} [Sanshoku doukou '''not''' confirmed, the other group (678p) denies [[toitoi]] and [[chanta]].]


=== What atozuke is not ===
Cases that are not atozuke are when the hand contains a fully concealed yaku ([[yakuhai]], [[sanshoku]], [[ikkitsuukan]]), such as:
Cases that are not atozuke are when the hand contains a fully concealed yaku ([[yakuhai]], [[sanshoku]], [[ikkitsuukan]]), such as:
:{{#mjt:111m45678s99p}} {{#mjt:5'55z}}  Agari: {{#mjt:3s}} or {{#mjt:6s}} or {{#mjt:9s}}
:{{#mjt:111m45678s99p}} {{#mjt:5'55z}}  Agari: {{#mjt:3s}} or {{#mjt:6s}} or {{#mjt:9s}}
... or when the '''first call''' confirms the yaku, such as:
... or when the '''first call''' confirms the yaku, such as:
:{{#mjt:1114567s111p}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:4s}} or {{#mjt:7s}} [sanshoku doukou confirmed]
:{{#mjt:1114567s111p}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:4s}} or {{#mjt:7s}} [Sanshoku doukou confirmed.]
... or when the hand aims for an obvious hand condition, such as:
... or when the hand aims for an obvious hand condition, such as:
:{{#mjt:23444m33344z}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:1m}} or {{#mjt:4m}} or {{#mjt:4z}} [hon'itsu confirmed/obvious]
:{{#mjt:23444m33344z}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:1m}} or {{#mjt:4m}} or {{#mjt:4z}} [Hon'itsu confirmed/obvious.]


However, calling for a group and then aiming to complete something with it falls under atozuke conditions, such as:
== What circumstances ignore atozuke ==
:{{#mjt:1112s111678p}} {{#mjt:11'1m}}  Agari: {{#mjt:2s}} or {{#mjt:3s}} [sanshoku doukou '''not''' confirmed, the other group denies [[toitoi]] and [[chanta]]]
* Self-picking (whether with menzen tsumo or not, as long as a yaku is normally present).
 
* Calling riichi (since riichi is always going to be present).
 
* The obvious yaku, including hon'itsu/chin'itsu, toitoi
== Example ==
* Ask about circumstancial yaku: rinshan kaihou, haitei, houtei. Some places ban the use of circumstancial yaku as to ignore atozuke. Chankan is generally viewed as not ever being a sufficient yaku.
This hand uses a [[shanpon]] tenpai for two tiles.  One may produce a yaku, while the other does not.
 
:{{#mjt:111m456s99p55z}} {{#mjt:7'89s}}  Agari: {{#mjt:9p}} or {{#mjt:5z}}
 
In the event of [[haitei]], [[houtei]], or even [[rinshan]], the issue of atozuke here would become moot, as yaku may apply to either winning tile.


== Risk of furiten ==
== Risk of furiten ==
Line 31: Line 33:
Particularly, open yakuless hands run the risk of [[furiten]].  That is especially true if the above example draws a 9-pin during the course of the hand, when additional tile draws remain in the wall.  In this case, a player cannot declare a win and must discard any tile in the hand.  Upon doing so, the player become furiten and must work around it, by changing its hand composion with the remain tile draws or other player discards.
Particularly, open yakuless hands run the risk of [[furiten]].  That is especially true if the above example draws a 9-pin during the course of the hand, when additional tile draws remain in the wall.  In this case, a player cannot declare a win and must discard any tile in the hand.  Upon doing so, the player become furiten and must work around it, by changing its hand composion with the remain tile draws or other player discards.


== External links ==
== Impact of atozuke ==
<!-- {{jpwiki|完全先付け}} -->
The state of atozuke is used to determine if you broke the rule of sakizuke in nashi-nashi mahjong. The [European Mahjong Association] has chosen to ignore this "detail" when conceiving their local ruleset, creating a unique nashi-ari experience.
 
== Kanzen Sakizuke ==


[[Category:Terminology]]
Just noting this term. [[User:KyuuSC|KyuuSC]] ([[User talk:KyuuSC|talk]]) 04:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
[[Category:Strategy]]

Latest revision as of 01:29, 28 February 2023

Testing a rewrite for atozuke:

Atozuke 「後付け」 is the state of a hand that is severely dependent on calls to complete the hand. This always implies the winning tile is dependent on calling, but previous calls can trigger the atozuke state as well.

Example

What atozuke is

The cases where a hand is caught in an atozuke position are:

  • when a hand is waiting on a tile that will provide it its winning yaku, such as
Agari: or [No riichi call.]
  • when a hand has opened up and is not dependent on the first call to score the yaku, such as
Agari: or
  • calling for a group and then aiming to complete something with it, such as:
Agari: or [Sanshoku doukou not confirmed, the other group (678p) denies toitoi and chanta.]

What atozuke is not

Cases that are not atozuke are when the hand contains a fully concealed yaku (yakuhai, sanshoku, ikkitsuukan), such as:

Agari: or or

... or when the first call confirms the yaku, such as:

Agari: or [Sanshoku doukou confirmed.]

... or when the hand aims for an obvious hand condition, such as:

Agari: or or [Hon'itsu confirmed/obvious.]

What circumstances ignore atozuke

  • Self-picking (whether with menzen tsumo or not, as long as a yaku is normally present).
  • Calling riichi (since riichi is always going to be present).
  • The obvious yaku, including hon'itsu/chin'itsu, toitoi
  • Ask about circumstancial yaku: rinshan kaihou, haitei, houtei. Some places ban the use of circumstancial yaku as to ignore atozuke. Chankan is generally viewed as not ever being a sufficient yaku.

Risk of furiten

"Wrong" tile drawn while using atozuke.
Draw:

Particularly, open yakuless hands run the risk of furiten. That is especially true if the above example draws a 9-pin during the course of the hand, when additional tile draws remain in the wall. In this case, a player cannot declare a win and must discard any tile in the hand. Upon doing so, the player become furiten and must work around it, by changing its hand composion with the remain tile draws or other player discards.

Impact of atozuke

The state of atozuke is used to determine if you broke the rule of sakizuke in nashi-nashi mahjong. The [European Mahjong Association] has chosen to ignore this "detail" when conceiving their local ruleset, creating a unique nashi-ari experience.

Kanzen Sakizuke

Just noting this term. KyuuSC (talk) 04:17, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://riichi.wiki/index.php?title=Talk:Atozuke&oldid=23532"