Talk:Local yaku

Optional yaku

Basically this list will be an expanded version of this one. The old one can be purged in favor of this list. KyuuAA (Talk:キュウ) 21:49, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Oh! Thanks for the notification! :D I'll have a look on that page. Though due to the limitation of yaku-card, I may try to keep the original "section + content" if there's more information we can bring on the page. -- Kator278 (talk) 00:31, 28 December 2019 (UTC)

All Black?

Some of the tile icons the site uses differ from the colors in a standard set, which makes some of the visualizations of hands like All Black not make sense. (Ex, 2p and 4p are generally black tiles but they have some green in this rendering. Not sure if there's any other major differences) SomeDee (talk) 17:42, 6 December 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for replying late. It's correct that the wiki used the tile image set from other general mahjong which is not standard Japanese one. Not only 24p, pinzu in general does not contain green rendering. It may not be easy to replace all of them at once, but I could replace 24p at first in order to keep consistent to this yaku. --Kator278 (talk) 01:00, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Should be fully done now. -- Kator278 (talk) 07:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

List of yaku not included in page

This section records the yaku that generally doesn't meet the condition to be included. The reasons may include but not limited to:

• Lacking of a reliable source. (Usually recorded in a few local-yaku websites without a proper source given.)
• Almost purely fan-made, only used in very specific matches or games. (e.g. Mahjong games for fun with Super-abilities.)
• Not used in Japanese mahjong, despite being used in other mahjong variants.

Ketsupaihou

Ketsupaihou 「欠牌和」 (lit. missing tile) is a hand with a penchan or kanchan wait, where 3 of the waiting tiles are already visible on the table.

• Value: 1 han
• Example: , Agari: (When three 3-pin have been discarded)
• Issue: A similar variant exists in MCR (和绝张). Lacking of source about usage in riichi mahjong.

Chinchii toushii

Chinchii toushii 「金鶏奪食」 (lit. golden rooster steals food) is a chankan hand mixed with ketsupaihou.

• Value: 4 han
• Example: , Chankan ron:
• Issue: Lacking of a reliable source.

Rentsuu honitsu

Rentsuu honitsu 「連字混一色」is a special honitsu hand, with sangenpai maching the suit. Hatsu goes with pinzu, haku with souzu and chun with manzu.

• Value: Mangan or above
• Examples:
  • 
  • 
  • 
• Issue: Lacking of a reliable source.

Dorahairi chinroutou chiitoitsu

Dorahairi chinroutou chiitoitsu 「ドラ入り清老頭七対子」 is a chiitoitsu hand with a pair of each of the terminals and a pair of dora.

• Value: Mangan or above
• Example: , when the dora is
• Issue: Lacking of a reliable source.

Mondeikou

Mondeikou 「門泥公」 is only used in a ruleset with 4 akadora. When a hand has all four akadora, this yaku is scored.

• Value:
  • 2 han (may decrease to 1 han when opened); or
  • Minus 4 han, which cancels out akadora's 4 han.
• Example:

Suuchoupaikou

Suuchoupaikou 「四跳牌刻」 is a hand with four triplets (or quads) in one suit where their numbers are increased by 2.

This yaku is a less common variant of suurenkou.

• Value: Usually yakuman
• Example:

The rule of sekinin barai can be applied in this yakuman hand.

, last:, formers:

Shimocha becomes liable for feeding the last required set: souzu of 3.

Pouhoi paarenchan

Only used alongside paarenchan. If a non-dealer breaks opponent's dealership successfully at the round the dealer can achieve paarenchan, Pouhoi paarenchan 「破回八連荘」 (lit. Destroyed eighth-dealership) is achieved. The non-dealer winner will automatically scored a yakuman.

• Value: Yakuman

Unlike paarenchan, the ryanhan-shibari restriction is not applied to the non-dealers.

In some ruleset, the winning condition is limited to either tsumo, or ron from the dealer.

Chousangen

Chousangen 「超三元」 (lit. Super 3 dragons) is a hand containing all three quads of sangenpais.

• Value: Double yakuman
• Example: , Ron:

When chousangen is not recognized, such hand is scored as a regular daisangen.

• Issue: Suspicion of invented by fancy name, without decent usage in matches.

Chousuushi

Chousuushi 「超四喜」 (lit. Super 4 winds) is a hand containing all four quads of wind tiles.

• Value: Triple or quadruple yakuman
• Example:

When chousuushi is not recognized, such hand values double or triple yakuman as daisuushi suukantsu.

• Issue: Suspicion of invented by fancy name, without decent usage in matches.

Reviews

Ketsupaihou, chinchii toushii, retsuu honitsu and chinroutou chiitoitsu are all taken from the 1957 Tokyo rules, for which I have a primary source for (that you can check from the article). Rentsuu also has an additional source available. These yaku are somewhat obsolete, since they don't really fit with modern scoring rules, but otherwise I don't see an issue with including them here. Tempara-chan (talk) 12:54, 10 February 2025 (UTC)

It is better to have multiple sources that independently uses these yaku. In this case, all these yaku are from one single book, so it's better to only include in where it just comes from (so introducing them on Tokyo rules would be fine), instead of leaving a place in local-yaku list. Besides, having an entry in atwiki doesn't mean that the yaku has multiple source, especially when most of atwiki page has only the yaku introducion while leaving almost blank when looking for the coverage of usage or its origin (this part is important). In fact, most of yaku have similar issue, probably even some of the yaku included in the page before. We'll also remove some of them in the future. --Kator278 (talk) 06:27, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Notes: Wikipedia 麻雀のローカル役/出典のない役 (Mahjong Local Yaku/Yaku without Origins) has the same progress to determine if a local yaku should be listed on the main page. However the restriction is strict (e.g. Ishino Uenimo Sannen is used in a few games, as well as several tournaments also introduce this yaku to their audiences) so that several yaku may be controversal to leave on page or not. But overall, most of the yaku on the removal list is obviously reasonable to exclude. --Kator278 (talk) 06:41, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

I understand the idea, although I do still consider some of these yaku worthy of inclusion. I went through the Notes: Wikipedia 麻雀のローカル役/出典メモ (Mahjong local yaku/source notes), and noticed ketsupaihou, chinchii toushii and rentsuu honitsu already have a couple of sources listed. Additionally Daizo Amano is a particularly strong source, considering how influential he and his association (likely the origin for alot of these yaku) were in early riichi mahjong. Some yaku on the main page – tsubame gaeshi, uumensai and pouhoi paarenchan – are mainly/only credited to Amano's 1971 New modern rules 「新現代ルール」, which should be comparable to the Tokyo rules. Of course, you could come to the conclusion that these yaku should also be removed. Tempara-chan (talk) 11:59, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Uumensai is not only introduced in a book. It is also used in some japanese mahjong games, as well as a yaku in other mahjong variant, so it is fine to have a place for it, since there're multiple information we can write to introduce it. Tsubame gaeshi can be found in some movies or manga. Pouhoi Paarenchan can be considered as removal, as there's the doubt of its coverage of usage. In general, what's needed is to find is about the proper usage of the yaku, so that we can get rid of relying on weak sources. The issue of ketsupaihou, chinchii toushii, retsuu honitsu and chinroutou chiitoitsu is that we're almost relying on the book introduction, while hard to find where these yaku are actually used. Despite of not listed in Local yaku, it's still fine to list them under Tokyo rules, as a part of introducing book content. --Kator278 (talk) 12:59, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

Uumensai: Introduced in two books (both covering the same ruleset), used in two video games, and resembles an MCR hand (not that non-Japanese usage should matter anyhow) – allowed. Ketsupaihou (rinpaihou): Introduced in three books, used in one video game, and resembles an MCR hand – not allowed. What is the logic here? And how is a mahjong association's official ruleset not proof that those rules were actually used? Can you please give an objective/quantifiable way for anyone to be able to decide whether or not a yaku can be listed on this page? I don't want to argue, I just don't get it. Tempara-chan (talk) 18:16, 11 February 2025 (UTC)

wikipedia:jp:Wikipedia:削除依頼/地獄和了 --Kator278 (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

That is a discussion from almost 17 years ago, before any of the sources I mentioned above were added to wikipedia. Of course, someone might still not consider it "noteworthy/worth mentioning", but that's a subjective opinion. Do you actually think what is/isn't included in the Japanese wikipedia page should dictate all of our choices regarding this page? Do you realize it has seen only one new addition in those same 17 years? Have you considered that the reason for that might be that, because the original contributors have left the page years ago, their submittal process doesn't work and they've effectively bricked the page? Actually the whole submittal process seems to violate (or at least come close to violating) Wikipedia's ownership of articles policies. Why should that be our baseline? Tempara-chan (talk) 23:46, 12 February 2025 (UTC)

You could raise a request to recover the entry of the yaku in JP wikipedia, given that you claimed there're multiple source as well as a lot of proofs of usage. As long as you can pursuade the editors, your submitted reasons can pass the quality recheck of entry, I wouldn't think there will be any reason to reject that. At least so far, I don't see there's sufficient evidence to see whether "rewarding by waiting on last tile copy" is widely used in actual activities, despite being listed in a few books, while lacking a trackable history of how this "yaku" is originated and eventually being a thing that was accepted by multiple associations, or become regionally popular, or used widely based on popular games, etc. The only thing clear is it's reasonable only as a content belonging to Tokyo rules, while hard to become an independent entry under Local yaku. It is natural to come up with a lot of doubts when trying to introduce this yaku: Why is there a lot of optional names (欠牌和/零牌和/地狱和了/etc)? How are these names actually come from, are there historical reasons to support that, instead of coming up by random brainstorm? When similar cases happened in mahjong games, people frequently uses the term "jigoku tanki/hell wait", while rarely use "欠牌和" to indicate the situation, is it a counterexample that people generally don't suggest it was used as a yaku? If readers have similar doubts, can people find an explanation good enough to know its hitory given by your providing source, or is the source just another place of giving his definition? You will eventually come up with these similar doubts when coming up with an entry of local yaku, to ensure that the quality of items. The cancellation of entry in JP wikipedia is legit, I don't see any problem about that. --Kator278 (talk) 04:54, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

There is nothing on Project:Editing guidelines to say added information has to also be in JP Wikipedia to be accepted. Whether or not you think it's necessary, is irrelevant, because you don't own this page. Regardless, I already pointed out why the Japanese checking/submittal process doesn't work, or atleast hasn't worked for the past 10–15 years, so why would I even try to use it. Ketsupaihou fulfills all editing guidelines, both on this wiki and Wikipedia itself, and even the guidelines for local yaku on JP Wikipedia (strong sources include books, manga with pro involvement and games with pro involvement; yaku should have a strong source, preferably multiple). There is literally no reason it shouldn't be included on this page. Tempara-chan (talk) 21:39, 13 February 2025 (UTC)

Given that you relied on the source from atwiki (weak source), while rejecting the removal result of JP wikipedia page (where more people can check the content). There's already two workaround way to leave your content: the four yaku can be listed in the page of book, or to try to relist it in JP wikipedia. And since you don't even wanna have a try, the topic can be generally stopped here. The quality of content still preserves in Riichi Wiki, regardless if you agree or not. The issue is already pointed out clear: it's never hard to just collect and write definitions one by one, anybody can write a lot of them in just one day, the proof is hardest thing to do and cost the most of the time. You could have rethink if you agree with the necessity of process. --Kator278 (talk) 17:50, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Just for the record, I do agree that atwiki is a weak source, and me mentioning it was unnecessary. However, it does not mean that my other sources are any less reliable. I also agree that sourcing is important and time consuming (in this case, I had to find and buy the book from an online Japanese used books seller, and take the time to translate it myself). I can't say anything in regards to the other books mentioned on JP Wikipedia, but I did also confirm the yaku's inclusion in "Shin Mahjong" and "Shodan Pro Mahjong" for the SFC. I can agree to use the JP Wikipedia sourcing guidelines here, but I don't think it's reasonable to demand every addition here has to first go through JP Wikipedia. Anyhow, this argument is clearly going nowhere, so I'll try to get an admin to provide their opinion on this subject. Tempara-chan (talk) 19:11, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

A temporary page Local_yaku/extensions was created for holding more local yaku, considering there're potentially more terms to fit in the future, for the people to quickly check the definitions while focusing less about the origins. Terms can first be complement and improved, until it becomes more reliable to fill in the main page. --Kator278 (talk) 18:38, 14 February 2025 (UTC)

Sanma?

This wiki's handling of alternate sanma rulesets is generally quite limited, which extends to this page aswell. The problem is, while alot of rule variations apply to both yonma and sanma, there are alot of rules and yaku that are generally only used in 3-player rulesets. Additionally, some yaku like daisharin and shousharin exist in yonma, but are almost always defined differently when used in sanma. Should these be included in this page, included under their own heading or have their own page entirely? I'd be in favor of the second option. Tempara-chan (talk) 14:22, 10 February 2025 (UTC)