Haitei raoyue and houtei raoyui: Difference between revisions

Haitei raoyue and houtei raoyui
Type	Yaku
Kanji	海底撈月; 河底撈魚
English	Win by last draw; Win by last discard
Value	1 han
Speed	Very Slow
Difficulty	Luck

VisualWikitext

Revision as of 20:15, 19 August 2024

Haitei raoyue 「海底撈月」, or haitei for short, is a yaku scored when a player wins by tsumo on the last drawable tile from the live wall.

Houtei raoyui 「河底撈魚」, or houtei for short, is scored when a player wins by ron on the last possible discard. The discarded tile does not have to be the tile just drawn by the player.

It is possible to win even if the hand's only yaku is haitei/houtei.

Haiteihai and houteihai

The haiteihai 「海底牌」 is the very last tile that can be drawn from the regular wall. It is always the 15th tile from the end, counting the 14 tiles of the dead wall. It is typically on the bottom of its two-tile stack, but kan calls will shift the designation of the last tile. When kan is called, the current haiteihai is shifted to the dead wall (to accommodate for the rinshan draw). In some groups, the tile may physically be moved from the live wall into the dead wall to make it clearer when the hand ends, but this generally not done in professional play.

Likewise, the very last discard is called houteihai 「河底牌」. The houteihai can never be called for chii, pon, or kan.

If a player calls a kan when there is only one tile left in the live wall, haitei is not scored. Despite being the "last draw" of the game, kan draws from the dead wall, but haitei requires a draw from the live wall. The final discarded tile after a kan is still valid for houtei.

A player cannot call a kan after drawing the last tile (either normally or as a result of a kan), because they would need to draw a rinshanpai and doing so would bring the dead wall down to 13 tiles.

Development

Like any hand, both haitei and houtei requires tenpai at the very last draw/discard to be scored. At this point, any hand in tenpai can win, even an otherwise "yakuless" open hand.

Compatibility

Main article: Yaku compatibility

^ Ippatsu requires riichi to be of any use.

	RCH	DRI	IPP	SMO	TAN	PFU	IPK	ITT	YAK	SDJ	SDO	TOI	SNA	SNK	CHA	JUN	RPK	SSG	HRO	HON	CHN	CHI	RIN	HAI	HOU	CHK
HAI
HOU

Haitei and houtei are mutually exclusive with each other, with chankan, and with rinshan kaihou. Each of these yaku requires the winning tile to come from a different location (the live wall, a tile added to make a shouminkan, and the dead wall, respectively). Houtei cannot combine with mentsumo because it is only winnable via discards.

As for ippatsu, it is impossible to call riichi unless there are at least 4 tiles left in the live wall. If riichi is declared with 4 tiles remaining, and no tile calls are made, then the riichi declarer will draw the haiteihai on the ippatsu draw. This allows ippatsu to be scored with haitei, but not houtei, since drawing the haiteihai means it is impossible to score houtei. While tile calls may shift the draw order, any tile call will interrupt ippatsu.

Meaning

The term haitei raoyue translates literally as "scooping up the reflection of the moon from the bottom of the sea." It is a figurative Chinese expression (sometimes used in Japanese as well) use to mean a futile task. houtei raoyui is a pun on this, translating literally as "catching fish from the bottom of the river." The kanji 河 is the term kawa, meaning the discard pond. Hence houtei is a pun referring to both haitei, and the act of catching a fish from the bottom of the discard river.

External links

海底撈月

Haitei raoyue in Japanese Wikipedia

河底撈魚

Houtei raoyui in Japanese Wikipedia

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 * [http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013012220gm-0009-7447-5fe65372&tw=0&ts=6 Houtei nomi]
 * [http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013062617gm-0089-0000-xa37799b6321c&tw=3&ts=4 Haitei with ippatsu]
+* [http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015052218gm-00a9-0000-8e283b90&ts=2 Haitei nomi] with [[furiten]]
 }}
-'''Haitei raoyue''' {{kana|海底撈月}} or simply '''Haitei''' is a standard [[yaku]], where a player wins with the tsumo on the '''haiteihai''', the last drawable tile from the live wall.  As such, this yaku is only accessible via tsumo.
+'''Haitei raoyue''' {{kana|海底撈月}}, or '''haitei''' for short, is a [[yaku]] scored when a player wins by [[tsumo]] on the last drawable tile from the live wall.
-'''Houtei raoyui''' {{kana|河底撈魚}} is the ron variant to haitei, which is dependent on the last discarded tile of a hand. So, players making the last discard of the hand must take extra care not to play into another player's hand in this case.
+'''Houtei raoyui'''  {{kana|河底撈魚}}, or '''houtei''' for short, is scored when a player wins by [[ron]] on the last possible discard. The discarded tile does not have to be the tile just drawn by the player.
-The last tile draw and discard is defined by the [[dead wall]].  By rule, the dead wall must retain 14-tiles at all times; and this includes any revealed [[dora|dora indicators]].  Naturally, to score either haitei or houtei, a player must be at [[tenpai]] at the end of the hand just before [[ryuukyoku]].  Finally, hands may definitely be declared for a win, if either haitei or houtei is the only yaku of the hand.
+It is possible to win even if the hand's only yaku is haitei/houtei.
-== Haiteihai ==
+== Haiteihai and houteihai ==
-{{main|Wanpai}}
-'''Haiteihai''' {{kana|海底牌}} is the very last tile that can be drawn from the regular wall.  This is clearly indicated as the 15th tile left, counting the tiles of the dead wall including the [[dora|dora indicator]].  Typically, this tile resides as the lower of two tiles next to the back end of the dead wall.  Earlier calls for [[kan]] may "alter" the designation of the last tile, as that same bottom tile gets shifted into the dead wall to maintain fourteen tiles after the [[rinshan]] draw.
+The '''haiteihai''' {{kana|海底牌}} is the very last tile that can be drawn from the regular wall. It is always the 15th tile from the end, counting the 14 tiles of the [[dead wall]]. It is typically on the bottom of its two-tile stack, but [[kan]] calls will shift the designation of the last tile. When kan is called, the current haiteihai is shifted to the dead wall (to accommodate for the [[rinshan]] draw). In some groups, the tile may physically be moved from the live wall into the dead wall to make it clearer when the hand ends, but this generally not done in professional play.
-Likewise, the very last discard is called '''houteihai''' {{kana|河底牌}}, which is subject to the call of "ron" for the houtei raoyui yaku and nothing else.  [[Naki|Tile calls]] of chii, pon, or kan cannot apply to it.
+Likewise, the very last discard is called '''houteihai''' {{kana|河底牌}}. The houteihai can never be called for [[chii]], [[pon]], or [[kan]].
-== Compatability ==
+If a player calls a kan when there is only one tile left in the live wall, haitei is not scored. Despite being the "last draw" of the game, kan draws from the dead wall, but haitei requires a draw from the live wall. The final discarded tile after a kan is still valid for houtei.
-{{main|Yaku compatability}}
-{{yakuheader}}
+A player cannot call a kan after drawing the last tile (either normally or as a result of a kan), because they would need to draw a rinshanpai and doing so would bring the dead wall down to 13 tiles.
-| HAI || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{no}} ||bgcolor="000000"|  ||bgcolor="000000"| || {{no}}
-|-
-| HOU || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{no}} || {{no}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{yes}} || {{no}} ||bgcolor="000000"| ||bgcolor="000000"|  || {{no}}
-|}
-Both yaku are mutually exclusive, as it is impossible to win by draw and by discard at the same time.  Houtei cannot combine with [[mentsumo]] simply because it is only winnable via discards.  As for [[ippatsu]], it is impossible for the riichi caller to have the last discard within one turn.
-=== With rinshan kaihou ===
+== Development ==
+[[image:Haitei chance.png|250px|thumb|right|[http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013122508gm-0009-7447-3e04d9d5&tw=3 Example tenpai], with one tile left to draw.]]
-Neither yaku cannot be combined with [[rinshan kaihou]], which requires an extra tile draw from from dead wall after a kan.
+Like any hand, both haitei and houtei requires tenpai at the very last draw/discard to be scored. At this point, any hand in tenpai can win, even an otherwise "yakuless" open hand.
+{{clear}}
+== Compatibility ==
+{{main|Yaku compatibility}}
-When winning on the replacement tile after a kan, haitei is applied to a live wall draw but not on a tile from the dead wall.  With regards to houtei, the last discarded tile cannot be called to complete [[mentsu|melds]] or be used to form [[kan|daiminkan]] (open kans).
+{{Yaku compatibility table|HAI,HOU}}
-Furthermore, per rule, the dead wall must be maintained at 14 tiles.  A kan call at the very last tile draw or discard would deny the replenishment of a tile from the regular wall to the dead wall.  In other words, forming a kantsu with the very last tile or discard, followed by drawing the rinshanpai, would deplete the dead wall to 13 tiles.
+Haitei and houtei are mutually exclusive with each other, with [[chankan]], and with [[rinshan kaihou]]. Each of these yaku requires the winning tile to come from a different location (the live wall, a tile added to make a [[shouminkan]], and the dead wall, respectively).  Houtei cannot combine with [[mentsumo]] because it is only winnable via discards.
-A potential scenario may arise when the second to last tile draw or discard may be legally used to call kan.  In turn, that would leave the very last tile from the regular wall to be shifted into the dead wall as the replacement tile.  If rinshan kaihou does occur, the ''rinshanpai'' could be viewed as the last draw.  However, the last draw must come from the regular wall in order to count as haitei. If a tile is discarded instead of calling tsumo win here, that will be the last discard of the game.  This last discard may suffice for houtei, to another player, of course.
+As for [[ippatsu]], it is impossible to call riichi unless there are at least 4 tiles left in the live wall. If riichi is declared with 4 tiles remaining, and no [[tile calls]] are made, then the riichi declarer will draw the haiteihai on the ippatsu draw. This allows ippatsu to be scored with haitei, but not houtei, since drawing the haiteihai means it is impossible to score houtei. While tile calls may shift the draw order, any tile call will interrupt ippatsu.
-== Setting up haitei raoyue or houtei raoyui==
+== Meaning ==
-[[image:Haitei chance.png|250px|thumb|right|[http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2013122508gm-0009-7447-3e04d9d5&tw=3 Example tenpai], with one tile left to draw.]]
-Like any hand, either yaku requires tenpai at the very last draw and/or discard to even have a chance of winning.
+The term '''haitei raoyue''' translates literally as "scooping up the reflection of the moon from the bottom of the sea." It is a figurative Chinese expression (sometimes used in Japanese as well) use to mean a futile task. '''houtei raoyui''' is a pun on this, translating literally as "catching fish from the bottom of the river." The kanji 河 is the term ''[[kawa]]'', meaning the discard pond. Hence houtei is a pun referring to both haitei, and the act of catching a fish from the bottom of the discard river.
 ==External links==
-*[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/海底撈月 海底撈月]
+{{jpwiki|海底撈月|Haitei raoyue}}
-:Haitei raoyue in Japanese Wikipedia.
+{{jpwiki|河底撈魚|Houtei raoyui}}
-*[https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/河底撈魚 河底撈魚]
-:Houtei raoyui in Japanese Wikipedia.
 [[Category:Yaku]]
 {{navbox yaku}}